By way of a bunch of years doing excellent systems engineering at Google and other places. I had the pleasure of working with Spencer, Peter, and Ben off and on. Good people and some of the best engineers I've ever worked with.
Is the Cockroach Labs team actually made up of the creators of The GIMP? I checked the team page for GIMP and there don't seem to be any overlaps.
Maybe this is just a joke about both having off-putting names that's going over my head?
The GIMP was originally created by Spencer Kimball and Peter Mattis who are respectively the CEO and VP of Engineering of Cockroach Labs.
It's true. These two guys have been working together in OSS for a long time - https://www.gimp.org/news/2015/11/22/20-years-of-gimp-releas...
Pete chose the name GIMP (we were mulling calling it "XIMP", for X11 Image Manipulation Program, but Pulp Fiction had recently been released, so...).
I (spencer) chose the name CockroachDB. I guess we have questionable tastes in OSS project naming.
Sorry if my previous comment came off as yet another job about Cockroach's name, I'm sure those get old. Thanks for your work on both projects. I've been a long time GIMP user, haven't had a use for Cockroach yet but someday.
Also, does this mean that Pete's on deck for naming the next OSS project you work on?
I think the algorithm is whoever comes up with the most egregious and sticky name wins.
Cool, thanks for that. I googled around and even got to that Wiki page but somehow didn't quite cross-reference the names.
If you ever wondered what the creators of the Gimp were up to these days, this is your answer:
Especially considering that none of the algorithms they use provide any protection from a compromised node, so it's kind of pointless to even have separate certificates for each node.
What "standard auth options" do you have in mind for node-to-node auth? The ones that come to my mind are even more of a pain to set up than TLS certs.
It's true that setting up a secure cluster is kind of annoying right now. But the kubernetes templates (https://github.com/cockroachdb/cockroach/tree/master/cloud/k...) do support secure mode now, and the plan is to provide more like this so it's not something that everyone has to solve by hand.
If you know or can predict the addresses or hostnames you'll be using, then it's possible to generate one cert and reuse it for multiple nodes. This isn't ideal from a security perspective since you lose the ability to revoke individual certs, but since we don't (yet) support CRLs/OCSP it's not much of a loss.
Adding an option to skip hostname checks for node certs might make this less of a pain (it would then be trivial to share one cert for all nodes if that's what you want to do). We'll consider that and see if it compromises any important security properties.
Ah, didn't see that on the K8S docs page which only lists insecure mode... but this secure mode requires manual intervention to approve the certificates, which is the antithesis of easy automated scaling and availability.
Hostname checks make sense for websites since useragents cant trust anything but I don't see the advantage for managing a db cluster. When would you need to revoke an individual cert and why wouldn't that be better handled by just shutting down the VM or container instead?
I'd prefer nodes using self-signed certs to securely connect, then user/pass or other secret to authenticate to cluster - but yes, if you remove the hostname check then the shared certs can do double duty as encryption/auth to the cluster, although this now brings up maintenance issues with rolling certs. Either way passing secrets (password or cert file) is easy when it's the same across the cluster.
It seems like CRDB could easily run in a simple replicaset with no maintenance but that requires running insecure, or have a rather convoluted manual process. Something in the middle would be much better.
> When would you need to revoke an individual cert and why wouldn't that be better handled by just shutting down the VM or container instead?
You revoke a cert when it's somehow been compromised and something other than the VM/container that's supposed to has it gets a copy of it.
I cant see how that cert would be lost where the node/container hasn't already been compromised. At that point there is a critical security issue where revoking a single certificate doesn't seem to cover much since the entire cluster should be reviewed and secured again with new keys.
Either way, I'd much prefer to make that decision as the admin rather than be forced into either extreme. Removing hostnames and having an easy way to roll certificates would go far towards operational simplicity and security.
Hopefully in the next few releases Kubernetes as well will be able to give pods unique cryptographic identities that can make securing individual nodes even easier.
Projects like cockroachdb are one of the key use cases we keep in mind when we look at how Kubernetes can evolve to make apps more secure by default.
Certificate management is still a major pain. I would rather have standard auth options while using encrypted traffic between nodes instead of generating certs for every node.
What's the use of checking node name and ip with the certificates? I already have full control of all the nodes so a key/secret match inside a secure connection would work just as well, since that's how SQL clients connect anyway. It seems like this issue is why the kubernetes deployment also uses insecure mode?
Some of those have been done, but not all, so it's still not possible to use CockroachDB with the Django ORM. The biggest blocker (IIRC) is that the default set of migrations that Django performs on a new database uses ALTER COLUMN TYPE.
Some of the features from those lists we have implemented include ALTER COLUMN SET DEFAULT, pg_table_is_visible(), UUID, extract(), and (some) schema changes in transactions. 1.2 will add (at least) INET types and sequences.
Thanks for updating.
Supporting an ORM would boost the usage in my opinion. We're using Django with PostgreSQL for a social blogging platform that needs to hold posts, comments, likes/votes, recommendations, analytics, metrics, billings, payment transactions and many more small and big informations. We're good with PostgreSQL at this moment and we're thinking to keep posts into a Cassandra database later in order to scale the database, we could use Django ORM multi-database (router) to keep these data into another database and have all the beauty of Django ORM.
If CockroachDB could start supporting Django ORM properly we'd start using it alongside our PostgreSQL database.
Can't wait to see CockroachDB getting Django ORM supported completely.
When would PostgreSQL features be compatible with Django ORM ?
Are these still the case:
Congrats on the release! I love watching cockroach grow and develop.
I'm not sure how interleaved tables help you with multi-tenancy, but I'd be curious to find out.
If, by multi-tenancy, you mean sharing a CRDB cluster between different applications or different instances of the same application, or different organizations all-together (say, in a hosted cluster that 3rd parties get access to), we don't have particular support for any of these. If each client is configurable with a user and a database, you can created different users/databases for each one and set the appropriate permissions. You can even set different placement options for the different databases if you want some in Asia and some in Africa.
When it comes to usage accounting, resource isolation, specific monitoring, there's nothing built-in at the moment.
I’m currently a developer at Cockroach working on interleaved tables.
If by multi tenancy you mean sharding by a particular column (or set of columns) to groups of nodes, interleaved tables are probably not what you’re looking for. Table partitioning is currently on the roadmap and you can find the RFC here https://github.com/cockroachdb/cockroach/blob/master/docs/RF....
Thanks rwu1997, I am referring to this advice given by Ben Darnell: https://forum.cockroachlabs.com/t/multi-tenancy-best-practic...
Interleaving does try to colocate the interleaved tables by taking advantage of the fact that the underlying SSTable storage sorts the data by their keys. It doesn't however guarantee that a sufficiently large interleave hierarchy of tables will be colocated on the same node(s) due to range splits (each range has a default maximum size of 64MB).
I'm looking forward to the partitioning work being done right now since one could in theory have a top-level (or root) table (with some tenantID) and tenant-specific tables interleaved, then easily partition on the tenantID to have tenancy isolation on all tenant-specific data.
re: #2 - We don’t have a published benchmark yet, but we will start sharing these in the coming months. Our early tests on key-value workloads (the published benchmarks will include TPC-C like workloads) have shown that our throughput is on par with Postgres when it's running with similar guarantees (ie serializable mode rather than read-committed).
1) Apart from interleaved tables , what are the possibile solutions for multi tenancy?
2) Is there a published benchmark on performance on join-heavy workloads?
It's on our roadmap and is actively being worked on right now. Should be available for version 1.2.
One of the most exciting products in a long time. Array data type is cool to see, if they can get JSON in the next release then it'll be everything we need.
> Baidu... are using CockroachDB to automate operations for applications that process 50M inserts and 2 TB of data daily.
Does this mean CockroachDB is not the database that does 50M inserts daily. Instead it is used to automate the deployment of those apps which actually run on a different database that's not CockroachDB?
In that case what are the reasons behind using CockroachDB for deployment but not for the apps themselves?
By the way what kind of performance can I get from CockroachDB? I know it's going to be slower than a Postgresql or MySQL running on replication. But how much slower?
Baidu is using it for a new application where previously they would have used sharded MySQL (https://www.cockroachlabs.com/customers/baidu/). Their dev team is fairly active on GitHub and Gitter if you want to ping them for more details.
Heroic Labs is using it for real-time, multi-player gaming development that can support a global userbase (https://www.cockroachlabs.com/customers/heroic-labs/). I'm not sure how gitter/github/HN active they are, but they work in open source, so they're probably pretty easy to connect with.
Anyone who wants a relational database that's highly available and scalable without dealing with the old fragile options of existing DBMS, especially if you want multi-master and no other dependencies. If SQL usage is relatively simple statements, then this is a drop-in replacement.
If you need horizontally scaled DBMS.
More in the FAQ: https://www.cockroachlabs.com/docs/stable/frequently-asked-q...
Yes I understand that, but I was looking more to better understand what kind of projects require this kind of tech. I can think of adtech as one industry, are there any others?
We've got some preliminary plans to use it for a monitoring application.
We want something with high uptime and resiliency that's going to be relatively easy for us to learn and deploy. We've used PostgreSQL and MySQL/MariaDB more in the past, but those were for smaller applications that didn't have significant uptime requirements.
We could figure things out with PostgreSQL and decide on a fault-tolerant setup, deal with sharding, etc. But it seems like CockroachDB will be an easier path forward, and also make scaling much simpler.
I've experimented a bit with Cockroach while building a bookmarking/archiving webservice, however it's one of those projects that are atm rather inactive (read: dropped).
Cockroach was rather pleasant to work with, even in single-node setups, sans not being compatible with ORMs.
Which ORMs are you hoping Cockroach would support?
What are the people of the HN community using CockroachDB for? In what kind of scenarios is this a good tool to choose?
Yes, CockroachDB excels at strong consistency at mid-low workload volumes. There are already some production deployments doing this kind of work.
Awesome, thank you!
I was considering running two horizontally-scaling non-vendor databases: one for handling high volumes of read/write operations that can handle eventual consistency and one for handling lower volumes of strong consistency/transactions.
Would CockroachDB be a good contender for the strong consistency case (and who would be good competitors and why)? Also, I've so far considered Cassandra and HBase for the eventual-consistency option; any recommendations there?
There are 2 distinct use-cases: OLAP (data warehouse) vs OLTP (operational database).
If you want a data warehouse to run SQL analytics over lots of data, stick with RedShift, BigQuery, Snowflake, MemSQL, MapD that use column-stores, vectorized operations, compiled queries and other features for fast performance. Also more options like Apache Drill, Dremio, SnappyData, MapR DB,... if you want SQL but over unstructured/random files stored somewhere.
For an operational database to hold your core active data and to do small/mid-data analysis, CRDB is an option along with PostgreSQL, MySQL, MariaDB, SQL Server, and others. Advantage is cloud-native and distributed architecture so you can get high-availability, multi-master, and easy scaling out of the box, even across multiple data-centers.
All the other traditional RDBMS either don't support this or require 3rd-party software to come close, although some will never match the same level of distributed functionality. In exchange, CRDB doesn't support the same performance, data types, and rich feature set of a single node PostgreSQL, for example. If you can tolerate downtime, need complex SQL statements, or already have solid tooling with the existing systems, then stick with them.
If you're running a globally distributed app, or a new app that can work with simpler SQL statements, or need availability and scaling with less work, then CRDB is a good fit. If you're looking for something in the middle, then CitusDB (postgres extension) allows for automatic sharding across multiple instances. Keep most of the PostgreSQL functionality with single-region horizontal scaling, but more work and complexity without the distributed features of CRDB.
Thank you - what a great freaking explanation!
Yeah, that was pretty damn comprehensive, thank you.
I'm sure somebody else will nitpick this, but on a high level it's cost and control.
Can someone ELI5; deploying CRDB to AWS ec2 instances as beneficial over, say, redshift? Or are they completely different solutions?
How easy is deployment/scaling/sharding with cockroach?
Aside from cost, where is the best use case for cockroach over anything else??
Great news, and thanks for including the customer use cases!
They've always had it: https://www.cockroachlabs.com/docs/stable/alter-table.html
Oh, awesome! I swear that Spencer said this didn't work at the NYC 1.0 meetup. I considered this a hard required for production readiness, glad to see it's available.
Congrats on the release! What's the status of online DDL? I remember it not being available for 1.0.
> Kyle’s testing found two new bugs: one in CockroachDB’s timestamp cache which could allow inconsistencies whenever two transactions are assigned the same timestamp, and one in which certain transactions could be applied twice due to internal retries. Both of these issues were fixed.
If you're speaking to "Linearizability violations such as stale reads can occur when the clock offset exceeds CockroachDB’s threshold." from section 2.1 in Aphyr's analysis, this too is touched upon in the post above:
> loose clock synchronization is necessary [...] to guarantee serializability. CockroachDB servers monitor the clock offset between them [...] although this monitoring is imperfect and may not be able to react quickly enough to large clock jumps.
All CockroachDB deployments should use NTP to synchronize their system clocks [...] the default of 500ms (increased since Kyle’s testing, when it was 250ms) to be reasonable in most environments, including virtualized cloud platforms.
Great job! The last Jepsen analysis for CockroachDB seems to have been done in February 2017, and suggests transactions can have stale reads in some situations — is this still the case?
I don't know the CockroachDB too well, but I'd guess in most scenarios you'll replicate the whole database between DCs, so you won't do table joins across DCs.
I admit I’m a bit ignorant of how CockroachDB works, but how is performance when doing table joins spanning multiple data centers?
Super cool work from CockroachLab! Wish to see more use cases and benchmark
TiDB is really cool, however my experience in reporting bugs to them didn't go well... I was trying to report that a generic sql file produced from mysqldump failed to import into tidb. I simply provided a sample table and a comment of the issue, and they told me to go F* myself. There seems to be no shortage of hostile comments from the TiDB developers if you google around a bit.
I'm a lead developer from TiDB, and thank you for voicing your experience regarding reporting bugs in our community. I can assure you that our team member would never ever offend you, or any other developer contributing to TiDB, in such a way. We are grateful for your participation and support.
Could you send us a link to the issue you are referring to, so we can look into it more and make sure it's resolved? If you have any other issue, feel free to email me directly as well: email@example.com
Thank you for your feedback. TiDB's progress would not be possible without people like you.
Are you referring to this? https://github.com/pingcap/tidb/issues/2742
They misunderstood your bug report, but they certainly didn't tell you to "go f* yourself". In fact, someone later relabeled the ticket as a compatibility issue with MySQL after you clarified the problem.
I can all but promise you that no CRDB dev will tell you to go F* yourself :P
Not even if I ask nicely?
Link to the issue?
CockroachDB and TiDB are two projects I've been keeping my eye on.